What a year for The ABMP Podcast. We have been so lucky to speak with leading health-care professionals, best-selling authors, and amazing members of the massage and bodywork community. Hosts Darren and Kristin wanted to share with you some of the episodes that made an impact on them, not only this year, but for the year to come.
Ep 234 – Tracking Wonder with Jeffrey Davis
“What I’ve Learned” from Esquire magazine
Anatomy Trains: www.anatomytrains.com
Anatomy Trains is a global leader in online anatomy education and also provides in-classroom certification programs for structural integration in the US, Canada, Australia, Europe, Japan, and China, as well as fresh-tissue cadaver dissection labs and weekend courses. The work of Anatomy Trains originated with founder Tom Myers, who mapped the human body into 13 myofascial meridians in his original book, currently in its fourth edition and translated into 12 languages. The principles of Anatomy Trains are used by osteopaths, physical therapists, bodyworkers, massage therapists, personal trainers, yoga, Pilates, Gyrotonics, and other body-minded manual therapists and movement professionals. Anatomy Trains inspires these practitioners to work with holistic anatomy in treating system-wide patterns to provide improved client outcomes in terms of structure and function.
0:00:00.9 Speaker 1: Anatomy Trains is excited to invite you to our latest in-person fascial dissection workshop, April 10th through 14th, 2023, in Boulder, Colorado. Join Anatomy Trains author Tom Myers and master dissector Todd Garcia on this voyage of discovery. Visit anatomytrains.com for more information.
0:00:34.5 Darren Buford: I'm Darren Buford.
0:00:35.0 Kristin Coverly: And I'm Kristin Coverly.
0:00:37.5 DB: And welcome to the ABMP podcast, a podcast where we speak with the massage and bodywork profession. Our guest today is us. You get a full dose of Kristin and Darren. And Kristin and I want to take some time today to thank our listeners. We seriously appreciate all of you and thanks for making the ABMP podcast a success. We appreciate you so much. Kristin, let me just... Before we start on the pod. Let me just ask you a question. With new years' coming up, do you have a resolution?
0:01:06.0 KC: Well, it was interesting when you asked, Hey, do you have a resolution you can talk about in the pod? And I was like, well, it's beginning of December, so I'm in what I might say is resolution mode. I have not locked it in yet. But what I do each year is I come up with a word to inspire me throughout the year. So I, in the past, like everyone, try to load all of my resolutions onto January 1st and have learned, that's not super successful for me. So my approach now is to come up with a word and for that word to inspire me on a daily, weekly, monthly basis throughout the year. And so I have decided my word for 2023 is spark, because it's a noun and a verb. I like to choose words that can kind of mean multiple things to me personally. And so when I think about spark as a noun, I think about the fact that every fire starts with a small little spark. So I've already started setting some small goals for myself that will lead to hopefully bigger changes. So, for example, I'm really getting inspired by watercolor painting right now.
0:02:11.9 KC: So small spark, 20 to 30 minutes each day painting will hopefully lead to me gaining some sort of skill set in watercolor painting, which I don't have yet. But that's the small spark. Or, taking a few intro classes in new modalities and movement practices that I'm really excited about. Take small little intro classes to see what bigger modalities I want to do a deeper dive into learning. So that's spark as a noun and then spark is a verb. Obviously, spark change. It's really a powerful verb. And so actively each month this year, I will examine a different area of my life and then set goals to spark changes in each of those areas. So I like to really use that life wheel. So one physical health, emotional health, spiritual health, etcetera. I'm in the mode of sparking ideas to set my goals for the new year. So spark it is. Spark it up.
0:03:10.8 DB: You've created a circumstance where you're going to go back a lot and think about it. And that's the number one thing with resolutions, is that people often aren't able to maintain them honestly past the first week or two. It's really sad when you look at the statistics. I can't remember what they are offhand, but every year I see that because a lot of articles will pop up and you're like, oh, that's so sad that 10% of people make it past the first week or something like that. So I'll do... Really quickly, I'll say first it would be to learn Spanish. I unfortunately chose French in high school, which has only paid off in a couple circumstances in my life and how we are living in Colorado, and there's a lot more Spanish spoken. And obviously, I've been traveling to a lot of places where Spanish is spoken, and I hate to feel that gap. Can I at least approach them where I'm not just a English speaking American here?
0:03:58.8 DB: The second thing is more bodywork oriented and I always love trying new modalities. And so I'm cheating here a little bit on this one. But this year in 2023, I really want to do the Rolfing 10-Series and I'm cheating here by saying that because I've already started. I've just had the first session on this past week and it was lovely and it was everything I would hope for. So listeners maybe stay tuned, and I can inform you as I move through that process because it's a 10-week-ish process or however you spread it out. I'm so excited. It's something I've always wanted to do with regards to bodywork.
0:04:36.1 KC: Oh, it's great.
0:04:37.4 DB: All right, listeners. As much as it is about looking forward, it's also about looking back over the past year. So today's podcast is about reflection, and Kristin and I want to reflect on the Podcasts we've had over the past year. I picked a couple and Kristin has picked a couple of pods that really resonated with us. We love all of our pods equally, but these couple for us really struck home, and we kind of got this idea over the past week talking with our show producer. The idea it kind of came from sort of Esquire magazine. For years, they've been running a column on the back page called what I've learned. It's really amazing. Listeners, if you ever get the chance just go to the website, and check it out. It's just a short interview with somebody about the lessons they've learned with life. And so this is Kristin and my, "What I've learned over 2022." So without further ado, Kristin, tell us your first podcast.
0:05:30.5 KC: So my strategy was choose one that sparked some sort of... Oh Here I am using spark again. I'm already in the spark mode. Sparked some sort of inspiration for my personal life and changes there and the second that really inspired me on a professional level as a massage therapist and body worker. So let's jump in with the first one. It's the personal, and it was episode 234 aired on May the 24th and it was with Jeffrey Davis, Tracking Wonder. He wrote a book, Tracking Wonder, and he defines Wonder as a heightened state of awareness that's brought about by something unexpected that either delights us or disorients us. And that sounds interesting and intriguing already on its own. But what does that really mean? So really at the core of everything from our conversation and his book, it's introducing moments of wonder into our daily lives and the practice of doing that can change our lives. So he talked about, number one, actively introducing the moments of Wonder but also using Wonder as a tool for how we can react differently to what's already happening.
0:06:44.7 KC: So as far as how do we react differently, so if something's happening, pause your fight-or-flight, increase your openness to challenge, interrupt the patterns of negative self-talk, and this one really spoke to me because I and every other human I know on the planet constantly struggles with interrupting patterns of negative self-talk. So it was really fascinating for me to listen to him talk about how we can use these tools where he's using the word Wonder, but really they're tools, for approaching life approaching situations differently. Listeners, let's listen to it a little bit from Jeffrey as he talks about Tracking Wonder.
0:07:24.4 S4: So if you can imagine Wonder like a multi-sided or multifaceted gem with six facets that might help you at least metaphorically enter these facets. So let's review them in three pairs. So the first pair is openness and curiosity. These are the foundational entry points to Tracking Wonder in your life. No matter where you are. If you're thinking I don't have time to Wonder, this is just the time actually to Wonder. So start with openness and curiosity. Openness is what I call the wide-sky facet of Wonder. This is what every human being is born with. Wonders are a birthright, and we're each born with the state of openness to new experiences when you're setting off on a new endeavor or if some of your listeners have a small business, and they're wanting to make a change in some new way, but they don't know everything about making that change in their business and they don't know the outcome. This is when you must foster openness. It's a sort of intelligent naivete of not knowing what's going to happen and to do it anyway.
0:08:36.0 S4: Curiosity is Wonder's playful proactive facet of Wonder that I call the rebel facet of Wonder because when we're curious, we're questioning the status quo ways of doing things and certainly curiosity has been at play the past 2 1/2 years in questioning a lot about the nature of work in other systems and institutions. Openness and curiosity together are a powerful duo to help us be more creative and less reactive. The second pair are bewilderment and hope. So this is where you're thinking, wow, I never thought of these as Wonder before. But imagine in that beautiful MGM film 1939, The Wizard of Oz, where Dorothy has her tornado moment and she lands smack-dab in technicolor Oz, and she is wide-eyed and bewildered, and she says in essence, "Toto, I don't think we're in Kansas anymore." Now many of us have had a similar tornado moment the past couple of two and a half years. Maybe you lost your job. Maybe your business did a complete 180. Maybe you might have lost your business, lost loved ones. I mean it's serious disorientation the past couple of years, and it's possible that in these moments you can fertilize instead of pathologize your confusion.
0:09:56.0 S4: You can stay with ambiguity just a little longer potentially to reach some personal and creative breakthroughs. So that's bewilderment. Hope is very proactive. It's not wishful thinking. This is where you surround yourself with other hopeful people. You set doable goals just to move toward another better future and you deliberately daydream. You indulge your vision for a better future.
0:10:29.2 KC: Okay, Darren. That was my first pick. What was your first pick?
0:10:36.4 DB: Kristin. I totally agree. It was so difficult looking back at the podcast over the past year. In fact, the first list I sent to you, I think had seven podcasts. I was already struggling to whittle it down, but I did get it to two. You had mentioned beforehand what you were going to do with regards to having one that was inspirational and then also one that was bodywork-related, so I followed the same path. And the first one I chose was episode 266, When Millennials Take Over, with author, Jamie Notter, on August 23rd. What was so cool and just amazing about this podcast is Jamie is an expert of 20 years on the topic of generational difference, and I've seen him speak at conferences before. He's just excellent on the topic and you can hear how passionate he is on the podcast. Why it mattered to me, I thoroughly enjoyed talking about generational differences, what makes us tick, how we're influenced, how we work together. Understanding where some of those stereotypes have come from like Gen Xers or cynical slackers or that Millennials are entitled, but then breaking those down and seeing past that or why those stereotypes were even created in the first place.
0:11:44.7 DB: I found the podcast important because our communications team at ABMP, which is made up of 13 individuals, actually stretches from Millennials to Boomers. That's really impressive, and it's really awesome to think about how we work together daily across those generational divides, even though we probably don't think of that or see that it is maybe just acknowledging after listening to that podcast that we have different backgrounds, different things we've experienced over our lives that can influence the way that we see things which can be really powerful in the way that we can be creative together as a team. So during the podcast, Kristin asked how Millennials are affecting the workplace positively. I thought that was such an excellent question and Jamie responded that they're optimistic doers, and I loved that. I believe that to be true and also he acknowledged the speed with which they work, the fact that they expect diversity in the workplace.
0:12:37.2 DB: They expect diversity of thoughts and ideas. And then he talked about Gen Xers being natural bridgers between the different generations, which I, as a Gen Xer myself, I feel like we do a pretty good job of that. In the end, I love the podcast because we were talking again about the differences, but also the similarities between the groups and ultimately having better conversations. And in your conversations, bringing curiosity to those conversations and how important that is instead of being ready to talk about your point of view, pausing and listening to what others have to say because it can be so impactful in the way that you see the world and also the things that you can reflect upon and then change, things that you can change. Explaining the why, those types of things. Curiosity and a lot of respect. So with that, let's have a quick listen to that podcast with Jamie Notter.
0:13:39.6 S5: Millennials, from the research that we have done, I think their biggest impact is on speed. And they are known for doing things fast. They are also known for being impatient when we have to tell them it needs to go slow. They had the rap of being entitled which is not true, except... It's a little true in the sense that if we'd grown up with everything they had, we'd be entitled too. We'd expect things to happen instantly if we had the Internet. And the social Internet, where they can go do things themselves. So Millennials as a generation are a sort of optimistic empowered doers. And I actually think one of the challenges with Millennials is they don't know how to go slow and sometimes you need to go slow. But they bring they bring speed, they bring innovation, they bring diversity. They really expect diversity in the workplace, not just sort of skin color and gender and all that, which they do expect. Diversity of thought, diversity of ideas.
0:14:45.7 S5: They expect people from different departments to be working together. And that's been a challenge for organizations too who are like "No, no, no, you're in marketing, you have to stay over there." So it doesn't make sense to them. I think they've really pushed boundaries and will continue to because they're just hitting management now. And so their impact is going to become even greater, I think, in the next 10 to 15 years. This also goes back to the Millennials and their... What we call being entitled. They expect customization. They expect it to work for them no matter what platform they're using. This is the digital part. No matter what platform you're using what device you're using, it should work and it should work for me and I should be able to customize my settings. That's just a given. And they're showing up... And they showed up back then in the workforce saying why can't I have a customized work experience? I mean when we sent everybody home... For decades we said we can't do that, it'll never work. Then we sent everyone home, and it work just fine.
0:15:47.1 S5: But the biggest impact was everyone got to customize their work experience. They work when they want, where they want, however they want, and that one's I think another structural change, not two faces out of the tube. We're not going back. And the Millennials are just going to reinforce that. They've been waiting for that for the last 10 years and now it's just happening. So I think that one is going to be reinforced, and I think that's true both on the customer side. Customers expect it to be however they want it. But what we're struggling with... What senior managers are struggling with, including Xers is that employees get to customize things. I won't geek out too much on the theory on this, although I do love it. The generations tend to alternate between a dominant one and a recessive one.
0:16:54.8 S5: Okay, Gen X is by definition in between two dominant generations, but it is a recessive generation and actually I think one of the characteristics of Gen X that I think is true is that we are natural bridgers. As a generation, that's our job. Our job is not to be upfront getting all the attention. We're behind the scenes making stuff happen. I think that's been true since we were young, and I think that's a good role. It'll be interesting to me as our generation really moves into almost exclusively senior management roles. How do you be senior management as a Bridger? That's going to be interesting.
0:17:19.5 DB: All right, that's my first selection. Kristin, what's your second selection?
0:17:21.1 KC: Yes, absolutely, Darren. I'm excited to share my second pick. Could we say that I cheated a little bit? Maybe. But I'm going to say no, because I chose the same guests, although they were on two different pods. So technically it's a double pod answer for my second choice, but I chose our two podcasts that we did with Lynn and Ann Teachworth of Trunamics. We did two pods with them this past year. Episode 217, which aired on April the 5th, called Deepening Your Practice, and episode 281, aired October 4th, called Understanding Thoracic Mobility. First of all, I think we can kind of start with their company name Trunamics. What does that mean? They described it and said that it means truth about the dynamics of the body, which sounds so big. But then once you start listening to Lynn and Ann, you really understand where that name comes from. They really are seeking the truth about how the body works, and they do that through their education and approach to the body. When Darren read their bios for the first time on that first episode, it took a while y'all. It was a long bio. Right, Darren, do you remember that?
0:18:39.0 DB: Totally. Absolutely.
0:18:40.0 KC: Because each of them, Lynn and Ann, have such diverse educational backgrounds. They know and are certified and are experts in so many different modalities. And my guess is only the top picks made it into their actual bios and they actually have a much deeper level of knowledge beyond that. And it's so obvious in the way that they talk about their approach. They describe their approach as combining structural, functional, and energetic approaches. And again, that's a bigger term for all the details that they bring. They really look at the body in such a multifaceted approach because they have training in very hands-on, what we would call, hands-on technical practices, structural integration, myofascial, really deeply treatment-oriented, soft tissue work, spanning to energetic practices, to movement practices.
0:19:39.3 KC: Ann is a Franklin Method practitioner as well as a yoga practitioner and a massage therapist. And Lynn has studied so many different modalities in a variety, again, this big scope of training from the hands-on to the energetic to the thing. So they both are coming together to bring all of this really rich, multifaceted knowledge and approach to the clients, the body, and the body work. And listeners, they get some extra bonus points because, let me be honest with you, they recorded the second podcast in their closet in Florida while hurricane, literal hurricane winds were whipping around outside the building. Like if that doesn't earn them bonus points and a spot in this year-end podcast, I don't know what would. Right, Darren?
0:20:27.5 DB: That's right. It was absolutely amazing to see the camera flip on and to see them in the closet sitting inches, just absolutely smushed in this closet and excited to pod, and didn't even make a thing of it and just rolled. And you're right, their enthusiasm is just incredible. It's really palpable.
0:20:46.6 KC: Yeah, let's listen to a little bit of that enthusiasm, passion, and deep depth of knowledge from Lynn and Ann Teachworth and their ABMP pods.
0:20:57.7 S6: Our company Trunamics, the name comes from the combination of the truth about the dynamics of the body, so Trunamics. And that's really our approach, this idea that when we understand the fundamental truths about the body, then we can apply any technique more effectively to get the results that we want. And our approach is that we want to work on multiple levels, not just one level where maybe we're just looking at physical or just looking at movement or just looking at energetic. We feel like all of those fundamental truths really reflect each other on all levels. And so we want to work as comprehensively as possible so that we are working with the whole body, the whole being.
0:21:39.9 S7: Teaching for Trunamics is, we did have that diverse background and function. So a lot of what we're traditionally taught about how muscles in the body works isn't all that correct sometimes. So I went and plowed into another 1000 hour training, but it kind of came out, how we kind of teach in Trunamics, just saying, "Hey, we have a physical body, we have a functional body, and we also have an informational level, or what he calls it an energy medicine, but it's really just information." And as therapists, a lot of time, we're just taught to work on one level of the body. And, whether it's just, "Hey, we're releasing fascia." Okay. And so, Ann and I started to notice it's like, well, a lot of people don't do function, and she's a Franklin Method educator. So, she's all about function and embodiment. And so, that's how we teach the anatomy, but we're just combining the best of structural body work to really look at instead of trying to create better posture, or relationships that way, which doesn't always help with pain. We try to help the body have better structure, but to create movement.
0:22:46.6 S7: And also looking at sometimes there's emotional patterns in there, congested energy, things that can bother. So, we like to go in and really help people to say, "Hey, let's look at it from this level and also this level and that level." And that's, I think, why we've had a lot of success working with a lot of professional athletes, because people want results. And I think the more you learn and the more angles you can look at it, the more you can help people. And so, we never want to stop learning, but Ann and I thought, "Well, nobody is kind of teaching this functional biomechanics of the organs and how tight, since large intestine can shut down your hip flexors, which will give you shoulder injuries and all that." So we thought, "Well, let's start kind of filling in this niche, especially in the sports and sports performance world, because there's a lot of great, great sports massage teachings out there." They're phenomenal, but we wanted to add to it.
0:23:42.1 S7: Hey, if you're a non-athlete and their shoulder [0:23:45.3] ____, is it because of their ankle or is it because of their hip? All of those things can be true. So, we'd like to kind of teach more of the cause of why things are really happening from a functional perspective and a structural perspective and energetic because, just getting results, you can't do the same protocol for every shoulder injury, so to speak. It's not going to work.
0:24:09.3 KC: Okay, Darren, rolling to you for your second pick.
0:24:13.8 DB: My second podcast was a recent one. It was episode 298, Functional Therapy with Dr. Joy Edwards. And for me, this is my body work episode, and it was an amazing podcast for me because it not only sparked wonder, there's those two words again, there's spark and wonder, but the circumstances with which we got to where we did with the subject material of the podcast was somewhat coincidental and amazing. So, let me just take the listeners through that because some of it is behind the scenes. So, Dr. Joy happened to be on the premises filming with Kristen in our studio and we hadn't... Kristen and I hadn't really talked about what the podcast was going to be about. So, I had preconceived notions. I was like, "Oh, Dr. Joy is an expert in cupping. Of course, we're going to talk about that. Dr. Joy's an expert with working with young athletes and has recently started working with the Cadaver Lab training. Those are incredible topics to talk about." And right before the podcast, Kristen was like, "I think we should talk about her geriatric work." And I was like, "What? I didn't even know that was a thing."
0:25:26.7 DB: And all of a sudden, instead of planning or overly planning, we just let the podcast flow. And what came of that was just beautiful. Dr. Joy expressed to us how she had recently in her life transitioned from some of those things that I had mentioned, and it wasn't that she's not doing some of those things in her practice still. It's this that she was working full-time or close to full-time at a geriatric facility. And that how this had become her life's work. For Dr. Joy, it was such a powerful transition to working with this new clientele. And you could see how excited she was to talk about it, how transformational it was to her practice and to herself personally. So what was so interesting about this is we're talking about working with geriatric clients, with elderly clients. And I know as the editor of Massage & BodyWork Magazine, this was an upcoming issue that we were going to work with, which was the elderly. The podcast was amazing.
0:26:28.2 DB: And then all of a sudden, it took a really interesting shift in which when the topic shifted from working with geriatric clients to working with clients with dementia, I naturally had a question for Dr. Joy, which was, "Dr. Joy, what's it like working with clientele who may not remember the next day or the next week that you had worked together?" And her answers were so powerful and so moving. I'm not kidding you listeners. We absolutely shifted the direction of the magazine. We came back up after the podcast and talked to the team and dementia became the cover story and focus of the publication that will be arriving in your mailboxes rather soon. It's the new issue of the year. It's the January-February 2023 issue of Massage & Bodywork Magazine. And the cover story is about dementia. I'm not sure I can express any podcast, they are all incredible, having that amount of impact. We literally shifted the work we were doing because it was so powerful, and Dr. Joy became a piece of that feature article that our senior editor, Carrie Osborne, wrote. It also hit home for me a lot because Dr. Joy mentioned her father has dementia and my father as well has dementia. So, just listening to the power of touch for individuals across all spectrums, it's so amazing and so powerful and so relevant. I just want to compliment all of you practitioners out there.
0:28:01.6 DB: No matter what clientele you're working with, you're touching so many people and your ripple effects are huge and they're bringing... The joy you're bringing to them is being transferred to thousands of people, millions of people daily. So, let's have a quick listen of Dr. Joy.
0:28:21.7 S8: Dementia looks very, very different in different people. Some people have mild dementia where they just kind of forget. Maybe in this 30-minute conversation, they may repeat things twice. Some people, there's like a 10-minute turnaround and that if we talk for 50 minutes, they're going to say that same thing probably five times. Some people are sad, some people are paranoid, some people... I mean, it just looks very, very different. And so I'm just... Honestly, I'm meeting them where they are. I have one person now that has dementia and she has a little bit of paranoia. People rarely forget the feeling that they get from being around you. So, even if this person doesn't know my face and doesn't know that I was there yesterday, there's still a comfort when I come in the room. And so one particular person had dementia and then she had a stroke and then spent time in the hospital and came back.
0:29:19.0 S8: And she's always been cold. And I think that's the thing that I love too about working here and that I know people. I know what they look like five years ago. I know that they like to ride horses five years ago. And so maybe they can't ride them now, but it's not gonna stop us from looking at horse videos, while we're standing up because they need to work on their standing balance or standing endurance. So, we can look at it. We can look at the video while we're actively doing therapy. But this person, she's always been cold, super cold the day I wanted to walk with her. She's shivering. I said, "You know what, I'll be right back." And I took her sweater and went, and I warmed it in the dryer for 10 minutes and then I brought it back and put it on her. And that was like, it was so... Like the random act of kindness was mind-blowing for her. And even though she didn't remember my name after that, she saw me when she was with her daughter and she said, "I know you, don't I?" I said, you do.
0:30:13.4 S8: She said, "I think you're my best walker." So she calls me her best walker. And even before that, I met the daughter. I saw the daughter sometime after I had given her the sweater and I just mentioned to her, yeah, I saw Miss so and so today and we had a great walk. And I said, I gave her a sweater. She said, "Oh, it was you." And I said, yeah. Apparently she had not stopped talking about that warm sweater all morning. She didn't know it was me, but unconsciously, when I come back in the room, there's a familiarity, there's an openness. And again, everybody is different. Some people are angry. And truthfully, if I go in and they're a little bit angry, I'll say, oh, Mr. Smith, now I didn't swear at you. So I expect you not to swear at me. And I'll say, I'll come back when you're feeling better. That could be 20 minutes later and his mood is shifted, and I come in and I smile. And it's almost like 51st states, and I like it. I can come in because I know Ms. Kristen has already told me that, she likes ice cream. So, even though she doesn't remember that I was just there yesterday, I can come in and say, you know what? I had the best ice cream. Do you like ice cream, Ms. Kristen?
0:31:19.0 S8: And she'll say, "I do." And so we start that conversation. Why don't you walk with me while we talk about ice cream? Why don't you exercise with me while we talk about ice cream? So, it's fun for me, and I love seeing them open up too. That is the best feeling in the world to know that they don't have to be guarded, that I'm there and it's a safe place. And especially if they remember me later, it's just a bonus now. I'm called everything in the book, Josephine, but I answer to all of them. As long as they have that smile and they're happy, I'm good.
0:31:51.0 DB: I want to thank our listeners again all around the world. Believe it or not, we have listeners all around the world. It's incredible to think about. I want to thank our producer, Colin Kelliher, who the shows on the ABMP network wouldn't be anything without him. He's incredibly talented and brings just unbelievable joy to the work he does. And I must thank my co-host, Kristen Coverly. It's a joy to join you every week to do this podcast. I believe we've learned so much and met so many incredible people across the bodywork spectrum. It's just so much fun to do this. We'll be back in January with some exciting surprises and episodes that we have teed up for you. Until then, thanks, happy holidays and Happy New Year.
0:32:32.5 KC: Yes, thank you. Darren, I will echo back to you. It is a joy and pleasure to do this podcast with you as well. We are very lucky. We get to have conversations with incredible, incredible leaders in our profession who are inspiring us through each episode, every word they say. So, thank you so much to all of our AB&P podcast guests and absolutely thank you to you listeners for joining us on this journey. We couldn't do it without you.